Episode 69: Overthinking, Old Beliefs, and the Clutter We Keep
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[00:00:00] JoAnn Krall: Welcome to episode 69 of Permission to Be Messy. I'm your host JoAnn Krall, and today I'm speaking with Cindi Frechette. Welcome, Cindi. I would love for you to introduce yourself.
[00:00:10] Cindi Frechette: Thanks for having me, JoAnn. I'm excited to be here. So I'm Cindi Frechette. I'm creator of The Unknow Method. A lot of people know me as The Un-Chaos Coach. I have almost 20 years experience as a therapist, and in the last five-ish years have really focused more on the transformational mindset coaching, decision-making coaching space.
So I work with high-achieving women to really help them stop the chaos in their mind so that they're able to make decisions from a place of trust and confidence rather than reactivity and fear.
[00:00:47] JoAnn Krall: I love that. chaos and decisions are, uh, what I've, I talk about all the time. So please, start by telling me about The Unknow Method.
[00:00:56] Cindi Frechette: Yeah. So The Unknow Method is a framework for my coaching container, and it really works with you to help kind of uncover the hidden beliefs, expectations, and thinking patterns that are driving the overthinking, which are really, is what's making decisions a lot harder than they need to be.
So instead of really, you know, thinking harder or trying to find the right answer, you really learn to question what you've been taught, what you believe about yourself, who you should be, and what your choices mean about you. And so once we have an awareness of all of that, we get to work on unknowing what no longer fits your life and what is blocking you from kind of getting the job, the relationship, whatever the thing is that you're trying to achieve.
[00:01:45] JoAnn Krall: I love that. And I'm, and of course my mind working towards all, all things organizing, I can see how that all applies. You know, you're, you're applying it to kind of the more, less tangible things, but you can apply it to physical things and making decisions as well.
[00:02:00] Cindi Frechette: Oh, absolutely.
And I actually have some clients that I work with that are working on physically decluttering their space, and what a lot of people don't realize is being able to un- Have that tangible action, you need to have the right mindset space
[00:02:19] JoAnn Krall: Absolutely. 'Cause there's, there's so many things that people don't realize.
People who are organized by nature or have an easy time letting go of things don't realize that items, stuff, even, you know, mental clutter, physical clutter, digital clutter, there can be so much more beyond the actual item. There's so much more to think about.
Some people just their decisions are like that, and then other people, there's a whole line of things that are attached to that
[00:02:47] Cindi Frechette: Oh, for sure. And I experienced that myself recently as we were trying to clean out kind of some bins in the garage, and I'm, like, almost ashamed to admit this, like how many bins of toys, clothes-
[00:03:02] JoAnn Krall: Mm-hmm
[00:03:02] Cindi Frechette: sentimental items we had from when both of my kids were little. And I really had to use my own work and my own Unknow method to ask myself, like, what meaning am I giving each of these items, and what's the story that I'm telling myself about why I can't get rid of it? And the thing that actually popped up for me a lot was, like, oh, I can't get rid of this because so-and-so gave me this.
[00:03:25] JoAnn Krall: Mm.
[00:03:26] Cindi Frechette: And that came up over and over, whether it was an outfit, a book, a toy, and I really had to look at it. I was like, what is that I'm experiencing? And it... For me, it was guilt-
[00:03:35] JoAnn Krall: Mm
[00:03:35] Cindi Frechette: ... about getting rid of something. And I really had to look at what even the layer underneath that was, right? Like, what am I telling myself guilt really means?
And I think one thing people don't always realize is guilt doesn't mean that you've done something wrong. It's really, it's a conflicting emotion that you're experiencing because there's a story that the old you was following-
[00:04:04] JoAnn Krall: Mm-hmm ...
[00:04:04] Cindi Frechette: versus where you are now, and that's really the piece of the guilt.
And when we can learn to sit with that emotion, it makes it a lot easier to be able to decide, do we keep something, do we part with something?
[00:04:17] JoAnn Krall: Mm. I've never actually even thought of it that way. That's interesting. You know, I always think guilt and that person gave it to me, they're gonna, be upset with me if I let it go.
Yeah.
But looking within yourself is probably really where you should be looking, the person on the other side of that y- guilt you feel, they would be totally fine with you letting most things go. There are people in our lives that, might take offense, you know?
Like, a lot of people-
Yeah
... will say, "Well, my... You know, I have to bring that back out when my aunt comes or my mother comes because I feel guilt 'cause I'm not displaying it." And that's a whole nother conversation that we need to have with those people.
[00:04:53] Cindi Frechette: Absolutely. But even with that, I think the beauty is when you understand the story that's underneath all of those things.
Then you're in a place of power to decide, because there's nothing wrong with saying, "I really want- you know, this vase to be out when, you know, Aunt Sally comes to visit for Thanksgiving.
[00:05:13] JoAnn Krall: Right.
[00:05:13] Cindi Frechette: But you're getting to make that from a place of clarity and confidence rather than a space of, "I need to keep everything because of guilt."
[00:05:23] JoAnn Krall: Right.
like you said, the layers.
And when you're, when you're physically decluttering something, that just slows you down and just makes people stop, and I've seen that, you know, spiral into way too much with some people.
I mean, there's the levels of amount of clutter that we hold onto, but there's the people that just can't let go of anything because every single thing is assigned a meaning.
[00:05:47] Cindi Frechette: For sure, and I love what you brought up about people-pleasing, because that is so tied to exactly what we're talking about, about keeping an item because it has some sort of meaning we've attached to it, and then we have the guilt.
And I th- you know, here's my take on people-pleasing.
Mm.
A lot of times it's not even about being nice, because I think that's what we often see people-pleasing as, is that we wanna be kind, we wanna be nice, we wanna be generous.
[00:06:15] JoAnn Krall: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:15] Cindi Frechette: Right? Because those are a lot of values that we're taught.
But at the end of the day, people-pleasing often is about kind of controlling an outcome because we don't want to experience somebody else's disappointment.
[00:06:29] JoAnn Krall: Oh, yeah. Wow. I've never really, never really thought about that that way. That's interesting. See, you're teaching me. I've been doing this for 20 years, and it's so funny the things...
Hence why I will often have clients that I'll say, you need more than just an organizer. You need more than somebody just showing you where things go, what to do. You know, I, I can get you to a certain level of letting go of things, but the, all of this is what is underneath-
Yeah
for many, many people. And it's normal.
[00:07:01] Cindi Frechette: Absolutely, and like I said, I first want to admit that my garage- ... you know, needed some help. And, you know, even I have a coach that I work with. I think you really hit the nail on the head. I mean, everybody sometimes needs somebody, some outside eyes, to be able to ask you questions or help you see something in a way that you aren't able to see yourself.
Because when we're so in it-
[00:07:26] JoAnn Krall: Right
[00:07:26] Cindi Frechette: ... you know, you can't... It, it's impossible. You can't see your own blind spots. It's like, I think I said this when we were, um, talking a while ago, if you ask a fish, like, "How's the water?" The fish doesn't even know it's in the water.
Right.
It's like-
Yeah
... what water?
Right.
And the same thing when we're going through physically organizing our space or our brains-
Mm-hmm
that we cannot see what we, what is just so normal and regular to us.
[00:07:55] JoAnn Krall: Right. Exactly. the other side, the big piece that I see with people is that, you know, need to be perfect, making the perfect choice.
I'd love to hear your perspective of somebody who is just struggling with every, you know, "Do I keep it? Do I let it go?" But then there's the whole level of, "Okay, now I'm gonna let it go." I've seen a lot of people, "Well, now I need to know the perfect place to let it go."
And it's, that's a big block for them. Like, they're like, "I can let it go, but I can't let it just go."
Yeah.
" I can't just send it to a donation center. I can't throw it in the trash. so I'd love to hear your
[00:08:33] Cindi Frechette: thoughts on that.
I'm laughing because I've, I've experienced this so much.
And for me, it all comes down to about, like, the kids' toys. I could go on forever about, you know, why that is for me, but, you know, again, I think this really comes back to- What are we telling ourselves this item means, and what emotion are we not able to manage or what are we trying to avoid experiencing by figuring out the, quote-unquote, "perfect place?"
Because that's just something that we're creating because this item is special to us. We want it... You know, nobody wants... I don't want to think about, I won't say the best days of my life, 'cause let's be real, the, you know, newborn and toddler ages- ... they're hard. They're beautiful, but they're hard.
[00:09:22] JoAnn Krall: Right.
[00:09:23] Cindi Frechette: But there's something for me about, right, that nostalgia. Like, I don't want this, you know, play mat or painting, whatever the item is.
Mm.
I don't want to think about, like, my memories getting thrown in a dumpster or, you know-
Mm
... there's specific donation places that, I feel like just throw everything into a pile and eventually it ends up, you know, out somewhere, and you don't wanna think about-
[00:09:47] JoAnn Krall: Yeah
[00:09:48] Cindi Frechette: that item that was so beautiful and special to you. And so it really comes down to what emotion are we not able to feel?
[00:09:57] JoAnn Krall: Yeah. Yeah. I know, 'cause o- on some level I know there are people who, you know, there is the piece of it, they, they don't want it to end up in a landfill, which is, that has nothing to do with emotions, that's just-
[00:10:09] Cindi Frechette: Yeah.
Yes ...
[00:10:09] JoAnn Krall: the environment piece of it. Or they want it to go-
absolutely ...
to a good home, which is, which is great. And, and that's fine for people who can manage it, but, I've had clients in the past who they just have too much stuff to make that be that detailed. And, I will often say to them, "Just let..."
You know, not just. I try not to use the word just, but let it go and just know that going forward you're, you'll do better. You... And this is really not even with nostalgic stuff. It's more like, products that they've bought that they didn't use and like.
Yeah.
And they feel that guilt-
Yeah
of spending all that money and, sometimes you just have to throw it away, and it... That's hard.
Yeah
- It's hard for people.
[00:10:50] Cindi Frechette: Yeah. And I actually have two thoughts on that. I've kind of one thought on it and then, uh, kind of like a practical tool that-
oh good
I think would be really helpful for people. And so I'm gonna tie that back to... You're right. Sometimes, I love what you said, like sometimes we just have too much of something, right? We bought whatever, you know, there was a sale on our favorite deodorant, our favorite body wash-
Yeah ...
makeup products, whatever the item is.
[00:11:16] JoAnn Krall: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:17] Cindi Frechette: And we don't wanna be wasteful, right? Because this comes back to what you were talking about, the inherited expectations.
Mm-hmm.
When we are kind of taught we don't waste money, you know, money doesn't grow on trees, we have to work hard for that.
[00:11:30] JoAnn Krall: Mm.
[00:11:31] Cindi Frechette: That's playing into, like our belief systems are playing into whether we can just throw something out.
And you're right, you know, again, whole separate soapbox, right? We wanna be mindful that, you know, we're not just filling up the landfills.
Right. Absolutely.
And I appreciate when you have something, sometimes you're like, "Oh, but I could donate this here, and I could..." But there is a point when volume becomes, you just can't-
Right
you know, nitpick where everything is going.
Right.
And so one, I would say if it's really holding someone up, it's kind of asking, what did I grow up learning about this type of thing? What decision am I making because of that? Is that something I really feel strongly with? 'Cause we certainly don't want people going against their values and feeling-
Right
yucky.
[00:12:18] JoAnn Krall: Right.
[00:12:18] Cindi Frechette: One of the tools that I've found that works really well, I'm curious if you've had this experience too, 'cause you've certainly done the physical space a lot longer-
[00:12:26] JoAnn Krall: Mm-hmm ...
[00:12:26] Cindi Frechette: um, than I have. I find, and I know this might sound a little silly and crazy for some people listening to this, I find it so helpful to have just like a quick conversation with the item-
Hmm
and really thanking it for, you know, whatever it did for you.
[00:12:43] JoAnn Krall: Yeah.
[00:12:44] Cindi Frechette: And I think it's just such beautiful language too, because then you're kind of closing the loop on something.
It's a little bit of closure-
[00:12:51] JoAnn Krall: Mm
[00:12:51] Cindi Frechette: ... to the items.
Right.
And so it feels finished. And our brain loves to keep tabs open.
[00:12:59] JoAnn Krall: Oh, yes.
[00:13:00] Cindi Frechette: All of the time.
[00:13:01] JoAnn Krall: Yes.
[00:13:01] Cindi Frechette: Uh, and so then we can kind of almost loophole our brain into thinking that something is finished. It can much easier close the tab, and it's just done, and you move forward.
[00:13:10] JoAnn Krall: Right. I can see that working, working for a lot of people. you know, when that book came out years ago, people were like, "Do you know the Marie Kondo method?" I'm like, "No, I don't." And so I, you know, I started reading her book, and I was like, "Okay, well, this isn't really anything different," except for that piece.
That piece is very much different, um, than anything m- a lot of, you know, organizers were talking about. Um, so I'm like, yeah, that, that, that can be a key piece to, to people. I mean, I've had some people go, "Oh, that doesn't work for me." You know what I mean? I'm like, "
[00:13:39] Cindi Frechette: Okay, well,
[00:13:40] JoAnn Krall: you try it. It works for you, great.
If it doesn't, it doesn't. we'll move on to the next way we can kind of process through things," 'cause we're all so different.
[00:13:48] Cindi Frechette: Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And even the work that I do with my one-on-one clients, you know, I have my Unknow method framework, but not everything is the right fit for one person.
And so often the conversations I'm having with people, and I'm sure similar for you too, it's if something that we're doing isn't working, you need to communicate that with me because there's a million different ways that we can get to the end result.
Mm-hmm.
Just because there's this way that I'm suggesting does not mean it's the only path.
[00:14:19] JoAnn Krall: Right. Exactly. I love that. Well, this has been great. I, um, I want to, um, let... First let me know, you, do you have, like, a resource for people that they can go... where can they find you? What, what resources do you have for people to learn more about you and-
[00:14:38] Cindi Frechette: People are welcome to come find me on Instagram or Facebook or my website.
Uh, my Instagram is @unknowwithcindi and the-
It's Cindy with an I ... kind of resource- But that'll be in the show notes-
Cindy, yes ... for people. Yeah Oh my goodness, yes. Yeah,
[00:14:55] JoAnn Krall: no.
[00:14:55] Cindi Frechette: I know. Thank you parents for that lovely spelling.
[00:14:58] JoAnn Krall: Oh, I got that kind of spelling too with my capital A.
[00:15:02] Cindi Frechette: Yep.
[00:15:02] JoAnn Krall: Yeah.
[00:15:03] Cindi Frechette: Um, and the resource that I have for people if they either are in my Instagram bio or the website, which is Unknow Method with Cindy, I have a little decision-making quiz for people that I typically find there's four types of decision-makers, and it can really help to create that awareness on when you know kind of what your pattern is.
[00:15:28] JoAnn Krall: Mm.
[00:15:28] Cindi Frechette: Um, it's really the first step to being able to make clearer decisions is understanding the how you're making decisions.
[00:15:37] JoAnn Krall: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. Um, and again, all of Cindi's information will be in the show notes for you, so don't worry about taking that down.
And the show notes are always found at joann krall K-R-A-L-L, and JoAnn with no E, uh, dot com. And, um, yeah, it was great having you. Thank you so much.
[00:15:59] Cindi Frechette: Thank you for having me.
[00:16:01] JoAnn Krall: As always, I'm wishing you much progress, peace, purpose, and the permission to be messy.
Thanks for listening.
